The Clan Lord Sentinel

Elise · by **Elise** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 1:46 am

Kerrah wrote:No, idiot, I was referring to the fact that just about every single person I've heard of in the past couple of years who has "quit" and said goodbye to everyone, always has come back at least once.

Messages like that don't make me want to come back.

Elise

Elise · by **Elise** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 2:09 am

Gorvin wrote:Straight Atkus, Darkus, etc are going to help you pass tests in far fewer total ranks than the Fell, Earthstones, or crappy Champion Spirit abilities (and probably the BB also) will

For tests with not too many critters in them, BB should allow you to pass eventually on luck wiffs (critter wiffs) with fewer ranks than you would need to brick or hit some of these things. For example, you could take out the easy ones the normal way, and use the BB to try to one-hit the last hard critter or two with a bit of luck (or more reliably with skill if they feral). In many ways, BB is a similar strategy to the time proven method of passing tests by training a pile of darkus and not bothering with defense, but of course taken to a rather ridiculous extreme. You certainly could not pass the test with any sort of dependability though. Its not a solo weapon.

I don't really expect to see any 8th circle bloodmages though. This is just as well. If there were more than just say Aldernon, no doubt quite a few would cry foul.

Elise

Elise · by **Elise** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:07 am

Daimoth wrote:
Michael wrote:Then we need to unbalance normal fighters as well, since subclasses were designed to be about half of the total fighter population.
Hmm. I heard from a friend who supposedly heard from a GM that subclasses were designed so that they would appeal to all styles of fighter.

Alas, this is the true failure of the subclasses. There were a bunch of people who stood back and viewed them with skepticism and did not jump at the chance to become a subclass. (A lot of them have since changed their mind, of course...) In any case, that period legitimized the unsubclass as the fourth subclass, and people started lobbying for rights/abilities/privileges/balance for people who did not subclass. One wonders if the 3000 rank unsubclassed fighter was ever intended to exist as more than just the rare oddity like the 2000 rank second circle fighter.

If only we would accept the laws of physics for what they are in the lands, just as we do in the real world. My little boy clearly wishes he could fly. He lifts his little arms an legs off the floor in an effort to pick himself up off the ground. He does not however lobby higher powers to repeal gravity -- the ultimate balance tax

. Gravity just is the way things are, as much as he may wish it to be otherwise.

It's a good thing too, because if he succeeded in repealing gravity, I suspect that the Order of the Mini would have a few things to say about that!

Personally, I think the subclasses per se get an undeservedly bad reputation because they are especially popular among junior/middle level fighters. It is easier to commit to a subclass that demands you spend ranks outside of non-core trainers when ranks come freely and the subclass is well understood. Junior fighters also see them as a way that they can participate on hunts with very senior fighters and still contribute meaningfully. This I can sympathize with. I recall a time when I played nursemaid to Michael on KB. He probably has 1000 more ranks than I do now. Given his trajectory and mine, it seems highly unlikely I would ever "catch up". I'm certain that many folks more junior than me feel the same way. Unfortunately, as a result, you end up with people already disadvantaged accepting more handicaps (attack from behind/fight on red) and fighting in overly hard areas. It's not really a recipe for consistent performance.

...or respect.

In the OOC world, the old guard would eventually retire, the new folks would become the old guard and rewrite history to their favor. It doesn't seem to work that way in Clanlord, so we'll have to figure out another way to get along. Personally, because the combat roles for the various subclasses are fairly different, I don't see a good reason why they need to be balanced or why just because one subclass has a whirlwind attack, the other one needs it too. I would rather see differentiation such that more and more cooperation is required to make it through a tough area.* I don't actually see a strong need for "balance" in this area. We already recognize that healers make better rods than fighters. I think there is plenty of room to have some fighters be better at some things than others too, by simple virtue of their subclass.

Vive La Difference!

Elise

*in as much as a limited population online makes this practical.

Michael · by **Michael** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 7:05 am

Elise wrote: Alas, this is the true failure of the subclasses. There were a bunch of people who stood back and viewed them with skepticism and did not jump at the chance to become a subclass. (A lot of them have since changed their mind, of course...) In any case, that period legitimized the unsubclass as the fourth subclass, and people started lobbying for rights/abilities/privileges/balance for people who did not subclass. One wonders if the 3000 rank unsubclassed fighter was ever intended to exist as more than just the rare oddity like the 2000 rank second circle fighter.

Unless the intent behind subclasses has changed since its was started, sub classes were never envisioned to be something that every fighter had to pic to remain effective.

If anyone wants to take the time to find it, there is a quote on the NG from HGM stating something along the lines of "we expect that about half of the fighters will pick a subclass, while the other half wont".

Forcing everyone into a subclass by giving them vastly better atkus and darkus just fucks the fighters that have already earned those ranks from other means and gives a huge advantage to fighters with fewer ranks since they can rank FAR more quickly.

I will quit this fucking game before I am shoe horned into a subclass that has no appeal to me and makes my real ranks worthless.

Lorikeet · by **Lorikeet** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 8:29 am

Elise wrote:
Kerrah wrote:No, idiot, I was referring to the fact that just about every single person I've heard of in the past couple of years who has "quit" and said goodbye to everyone, always has come back at least once.
Messages like that don't make me want to come back.

Elise

While I suppose it wasn't so nice of Kerrah to call Frog an idiot, I think it's common knowledge that they don't hold each other in high regard. Why would her point that people come back after leaving make you not want to return? And if you (and the others on this board without current accounts) are not at all interested, why are you still posting? It always seems to us (who are still playing) that those who are at least interestsed enough to pay attention to the Sentinel may return some day, and it has happened quite a few times.

Daimoth · by **Daimoth** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:38 am

Elise wrote:Messages like that don't make me want to come back.

Then there must not be much at all that makes you want to come back. If Kerrah calling a snert an idiot is preventing you.

Michael · by **Michael** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 11:32 am

Frog is an idiot.

Consider it a public service announcement.

Sala Dragon · by **Sala Dragon** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 3:07 pm

Michael wrote:[...]
If anyone wants to take the time to find it, there is a quote on the NG from HGM stating something along the lines of "we expect that about half of the fighters will pick a subclass, while the other half wont".

Forcing everyone into a subclass by giving them vastly better atkus and darkus just fucks the fighters that have already earned those ranks from other means and gives a huge advantage to fighters with fewer ranks since they can rank FAR more quickly.

[...]

Much like your memory, I firmly remember a GM (Ann, Eldon, or HGM) saying that subclasses were intended to be 30/30/30/10 (nonsubclassed). Obviously this isn't the case.

Regardless of which of us remembers properly (or we may even both be right), it's an incredibly outdated and no longer applicable quote anyway.

Yes, fell blade and gossamer+Ranger provide ways for lowbie fighters to catch up much more quickly. So does KI. I don't think either of these is a bad thing. (FWIW very few of my ranks are from KI hunting, less than 200.)

(My records show that there are 111 Rangers to only 39 champions. These numbers may be slightly low, but probably not by much.)

Frog · by **Frog** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 4:55 pm

Lorikeet wrote:While I suppose it wasn't so nice of Kerrah to call Frog an idiot,

[OOZC]
You've called me much worse things than an idiot, plus you and Kerrah are homies so you naturally seek to defend her her against Elise's honest statement.
[/OOZC]

Icy · by **Icy** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:13 pm

Frog wrote:homies

Frog · by **Frog** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:21 pm

Icy wrote:
Frog wrote:homies

[OOZC]
YuOz gOtZ a PrObLeM wItH mAh lInGo hOmY bOi????/
[/OOZC]

noivad · by **noivad** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 9:41 pm

I saw a problem with rangers when I saw someone with 1K ranks less than me made quick work of a hatred and crimson noid at least 6 months ago. I might've even mentioned it (those of you who love research can find it, I'm too lazy.) Rangers are overpowered.

Now you could nerf them or give pure fighters a new ability like the ability to hit more than one monster adjacent to then with one swing, doing full damage to one and half damage to each monster adjacent to the fighter who's not the main target. You could also give pure fighters the ability to deflect a blow (or lessen it) and immediately hit a creature back with an automatic hit.* Make them 6th circle trainers and cap them at 50 or 100, with the multihit or deflection blow more effective with each rank or 5.

While you're at it give Champs a more effective multus and deflktus trainer. Or give then the same trainer, but they get a bonus per rank.

If you're really enterprising you could cap each at anywhere from 25 to 50 per circle at 6th and up, so a 8th circle would either have a 75 or 150 cap.

M

*For those familiar with WoW, Rogues have these potential abilities entitled Blade Fury (or Flurry?) and Riposte (sp?). I wouldn't usually pull ideas out of there, but these are very fun abilities to use, and I think adding these with a special sound to each would make a lot of people happy, or feel somewhat less obsolete.

Sala Dragon · by **Sala Dragon** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 10:32 pm

noivad wrote:[...] or give pure fighters a new ability like the ability to hit more than one monster adjacent to then with one swing, doing full damage to one and half damage to each monster adjacent to the fighter who's not the main target. You could also give pure fighters the ability to deflect a blow (or lessen it) and immediately hit a creature back with an automatic hit. [...]

No?

Why would you lose abilities when you choose a subclass?

Unless you meant to give these abilities to all fighters who train in them, in which case that's another thread, although we're already way OT anyway (and I think I've seen all those ideas suggesed before).

Subclasses are supposed to offer situational advantages, and they do.

Maeght · by **Maeght** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 12:11 am

noivad wrote:I saw a problem with rangers when I saw someone with 1K ranks less than me made quick work of a hatred and crimson noid at least 6 months ago. I might've even mentioned it (those of you who love research can find it, I'm too lazy.) Rangers are overpowered.

I challenge anyone in this thread to name names and describe SPECIFICALLY why the individual is over powered.

I'd also like to see the list of Rangers that kick ass in every area worth hunting.

People didn't have a problem naming names with Bloodbladers.

Lets hear it. I'm tired of hearing how Ranger A kicks ass in area X, B in Y, and C in Z and all of the sudden all rangers kick ass everywhere.

- Ranger Maeght

noivad · by **noivad** » Fri Dec 01, 2006 1:26 am

Sala Dragon wrote:
noivad wrote:[...] or give pure fighters a new ability like the ability to hit more than one monster adjacent to then with one swing, doing full damage to one and half damage to each monster adjacent to the fighter who's not the main target. You could also give pure fighters the ability to deflect a blow (or lessen it) and immediately hit a creature back with an automatic hit. [...]
No?

Why would you lose abilities when you choose a subclass?

Unless you meant to give these abilities to all fighters who train in them, in which case that's another thread, although we're already way OT anyway (and I think I've seen all those ideas suggesed before).

Subclasses are supposed to offer situational advantages, and they do.

You loose nothing, you just don't Gain an ability. With subclasses you choose to be good in one area, these abilities suggested are good in all areas.

Also, the only limiting factor is the ranger's training of a trainer -- from what I know there's no cap on that -- and the ability to get last hit on a creature which hunting parties are pretty good about setting up those situations. So, you take a situational ability and apply it to a whole family, THEN you learn another family, and then with uncapped training another another. Pretty soon your situational ability can be used in so many situations that it no longer becomes situational. You're using it everywhere.

And don't try to toss this away saying we're off topic. at least 90% of the threads here change topics of debate.

Next, yeah these ideas have been suggested, I'm repeating them because (1) they haven't been implemented, and (2) it's a lot better than a nerf. Nerfing makes the game less fun, I'm trying to maintain the fun factor while balancing it out a bit.

One of the things hat's cool about the training system is, even though it's not capped with the most effective trainers you have to balance that training with support training. i.e Atkus is balanced with Balthus, Darkus with Regia. How does the ranger training balance out? I honestly don't know if it does. All I know is that Duvin is required to learn creatures, but what's Duvin balanced out with? If it's balanced out by more Goss ranks that's not really a balance because the goss ranks aren't support ranks they are also effective in increasing your swing conservation. Maybe if there was a duvin balancer that kept the animal nature out of the ranger's mind (so they wouldn't go feral and become uncontrollable like wild animals) that could be an answer. I think it'd be kinda cool to watch a ranger snap and just start running around wildly out of control of the clicker. heh.

If there is a balancer please enlighten us as to how ranger training works. There is little if anything written about it. If someone takes the time to present the facts of ranger training and why it's not overpowered, please tell us. If you're really cool you could fill in the Ranger section on the CLUMP. Right now it just says what each trainer tells a ranger. I don't see a balance to Duvin in the list. "I can teach you not to be overcome by the wild ways of beasts?"

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