The Clan Lord Sentinel

Arrr I be pretty sure most of us have come to an agreement and or consensus. Things weres tha hashed out.

Class # 6 sounds particularly interestin'

Maybes tha some intrepid scholars can uncover things me brute force plunder and darshak power depletion focused expeditions could not.

Gloria wrote:Hel Tree Order has taken a considerable amount of time to plan this series of classes for the benefit of the community, and has generously given supplies for ethereal amulets. There is simply no reason to criticise them. People should thank them for hosting an interesting and fun community event! This is the first class since I put my spirit training classes on hold, and with this criticism, we may not see another class for a long time.

I have to be sarcastic here...

Thank you, Hel Tree Order for a class that I cannot attend.
Thank you, Hel Tree Order for for unsatisfied hope that I finally might replace some broken EPS.
Thank you, Hel Tree Order for making me search for someone who would possibly attend the class
Thank you, Hel Tree Order for letting me get my stuff out of storage and also for others that re-arranged their stuff
Thank you, Hel Tree Order for making me do a senseless last materials hunt
Thank you, Hel Tree Order for destroying the hope and for making those people pissed who would have gone on the class and which did not by your declaration
Thank you, Hel Tree Order for not even responding on my plead.
Thank you, Hel Tree Order for switching from "hooray, finally something useful" to "§$&%§$!!"
Thank you, Hel Tree Order for a visionstone of a textlog.

Just one non sarcastic Thank you to Feodoric, who talked to me and who can't change the wrong decission of his clan.

Gloria wrote: Instead of criticising, make a solution! Recruit, bribe, persuade a non-Hel Tree Order ethereal mystic to go on that trip to the forge and they can make the items. Hel Tree Order is already doing a lot by providing amulets for everyone.

Okay now tell me which of the active mystics (hahaha, do we really have any still??) which clan during that times in which i could actually meet them can create ethereal items?

Hello folks. I have an OOC update for people attending the classes and/or field trips.

We are currently debating whether to continue running these sessions. My clan mates, our supporters and I are pretty upset and a few people are considering leaving Clan Lord.

I'll fill you in on what happened, as I understand it. Daimoth paid Stinkfist (IC) to sabotage our field trip to the Forge on Wednesday to show the students around and make Amulets for them.

We reached the Forge, but Drablak, the ethereal crafter, along with Lily Fren and Harper, so we were healing up in preparation to go get them by chain. Stinkfist was also on the trip, and had so far helped support us and recruit a couple of extra people. After some OOC discussion about the recent controversies, we thought we were on good terms with him.

Before we could rescue Drablak and others, however, Stinkfist chained Drablak to an unreachable part of the plane, simultaneously activating nearby snells and swamping us with enough creatures that we were unable to rescue anyone else. Frozen Shade and Hoggle who were attempting to rescue the fallens also had to depart. Stinkfist then left us in the EP, with some parting words from Daimoth.

Fortunately, Wangah Rah was one of those who had made it to the Forge, so crafting was still possible, though we were missing quite a lot of materials carried by Drablak and Lily Fren. We had hoped to put together a stock of spare amulets to hand out, for instance.

-----

Now you've heard the story, I'll tell you my view of this. I don't speak for the H3O Council, clan members, our supporters, friends, or the University of Puddleby, but they are broadly on the same page.

I regard this kind of behaviour as griefing. The fact that it had an IC reason behind it doesn't change that. There's a line between RPing evil in a fun way and griefing that is easy to cross, and I think sabotaging a hunt underway firmly falls on the griefing side, especially something so unexpected. This affects a lot more people than Drablak or H3O. It's a nasty thing for a clicker to decide to do, not just a character.

I've thought a bit about the idea of whether we and the others on the hunt should expect and deserve this kind of treatment, an idea that was suggested to me by Stinkfist after the event. (For the record, Stinkfist tells me he still OOC supports us and didn't anticipate us being so upset. If that's the case, I think he really didn't think things through properly.)

I think it's not something we ought to expect, nor something we deserve. Firstly, it affected the whole hunt group and other people not even on it, not just me, Drablak or Lily Fren. This was, after all, an event aimed at public education.

Secondly, what we were guilty of (and have said we are sorry about) was at the most negligence in not being clear enough about our aim of just making Amulets for students with people who talked with us about it after we announced that aim. (Since we did announce it twice at the prior field trip.) A few people were disappointed as a result, which was a real shame, but we were certainly not being malicious.

What happened to us was malicious, since it was directly aimed at sabotaging one of our projects and the experiences of those involved. Griefing is greater in weight than what we did and it wouldn't be justified even if we had done something worse.

We will respond to this IC of course as our characters would, but the above reasons are why I take it to be an OOC grievance too and why I'm upset OOC.

-----

Now, about the classes! Classes will be postponed until further notice, since we're not particularly motivated right now (it's enough stress putting them together each week anyway without the additional drama). Some people are considering leaving and we will probably all be taking a bit of a break in any case. I can't speak for my clan members, but I am personally willing to continue the classes if there's enough popular demand. If you'd like to have us continue, please let me know.

HWC Feodoric

P.S. I won't be entering into any further discussion here in this thread but you're welcome to discuss things with me via PM or the H3O forum if you want to know more.

So, I am going to attempt to move this forward, and ask. Is anyone planning on making a map of the ether? It is huge, and I think maps would be wonderful. I know this is a large project, but the Kyueems, it might not be that bad? I would also like to visit the Annulus at some point, so perhaps we can all just work together on the goal of exploration?

Well since this is now an ooc thread,... I do apologize for my part in things. If people actually thought griefing occurred then we clearly missed our objective and that was highly short sighted of me. I was expecting court cases and public condemnation at best, but never this defeatism and people threatening to leave over a depart. Clearly this scenario was too extreme for people we didn't make sure would be inclined for it. Nor did we acquire any semblance of consent. For that much we were definitely in the wrong.

However, I feel that it needs to be said we never held nor do we hold animosity toward any of you. Nor was this, from our perspective, griefing. We might've been insensitive to your perspective but never were we maliciously inclined.

We will do anything necessary to assist you in the future, including just leaving you alone if you would prefer it. We will make all concessions necessary if you require them. There is no reason to leave over something this minor involving people who bear you no ill will unless leaving is your objective.

Again, I am sorry and hope you will continue to be involved in and strengthen this community.

I can see both perspectives.

First, I thought the assassination was fair because exiles can do evil things in addition to good. Everyone doesn't have to be nice. I actually enjoy political intrigue, pirates, and conspiracies so it was fun to try to puzzle out who was involved in the assassination and who wasn't. What do you do with evil characters? Bk them, take them to court, and certainly don't trust them again. Instead of giving up on the game, ask the question 'how do we prevent Stinkfist and Daimoth from doing the same thing again next time?'

Second, from an ooc perspective it's really difficult to get a lot of people together for an event. It took a lot of time and energy to even make it to that part of the EP , and to have the event sabotaged is really demoralising. And I really don't know how to prevent future sabotages, could it happen every time? Maybe you could recruit oodles of high power exiles to go, but then who can count on those kind of social connections or everyone being able to attend at the same time. Personally, if I kept trying to implement an event and it was repeatedly sabotaged, I would probably give up at some point.

I guess the main point is that the EP trip was successful in spite of the assassination (thank you again for my amulet!), and from the tone of Daimoth and Stinkfist's messages it seems unlikely they will sabotage again. I have been having A LOT of fun with classes and am eager for them to continue! Thank you Hel Tree Order for holding these classes!

IC: I've been wanting for a long time to learn about the EP, and to eventually get all the EP training I can get. I was thrilled when Feodoric announced this classes, and thoroughly enjoyed them - even the first forge trip, where I never actually got to see the forge and in fact was afraid I was going to have to depart, so buried in slugs was I. I would be extremely disappointed if classes are not resumed at some point. As for the behavior of Daimoth and Stinkfist, I think that some exiles were not pleased that H3o's plans didn't fit their desires. I don't think that justifies the degree of sabotage they perpetrated. Somebody mentioned court. We haven't had a good court case in years. Perhaps it's time.

OOC: I would hate to see anyone leave Clan Lord because of this. I would hate to see the classes ended, because I think they do a good service for the community. I think, as I said in another message, that the Hel Tree Order could have handled the original "I'm not coming, but make stuff for me" requests better than they did. I do not think sabotaging the trip was the right way to deal with that.

I'll add my thanks to the Hel Tree Order for their efforts so far, and encouragement to continue them in the near future.

Wayfarer, Journeyman Mystic

I hate when people leave or threaten to leave over the actions of one clicker or a small group. Think about all the other positive relationships you have with in the game.

Did this kind of suck for the people running this forging event? Yes, of course. Its always horrible for the morale of a group to go out and try to achieve something and fail, at the hands of someone in your group none the less. But to put this in some kind of perspective of clanlord griefing, I would rank it somewhere below the antics of the Pogues during the whole portal moving fiasco on KI, and Malkor absconding with the last catapult piece.

Maybe this whole "contract hit" was a little much, but so far it was a single incident. As long as thats all it was, I think its perfectly fine and totally "in character." Daimoth has always spoken out against the Mystic power structure, and this "We will only forge the tools we approve of" sort of reeks of the horrible horrible mystic "you arent ready yet" attitude. And well, Stinkfist has always shown himself to be up for the highest bidder, so thats not such a big surprise.

In closing, to add a little more RP back to this, this even shall hence forth be known as "The Red Forging."

Hoggle wrote:And well, Stinkfist has always shown himself to be up for the highest bidder, so thats not such a big surprise.

That's right. And for him to claim it was a one-off is also pirate-speak for "lets see if I can pull this off again".

"fool me once, shame on you..."

I've rewritten this a number of times and probably don't have it right yet. There really are a lot of gnarly issues here, and I am not trying to insult anyone or to lecture, but to explain as best I can what I've learned from talking with folks, including what happened OOCly. The facts are derived from the good people of Puddleby, if there are mistakes in the information below, those mistakes are entirely mine. (IC Dean Fiona of the University of Puddleby asked me to investigate what happened.)

Above all other considerations, if Drablak, Feodoric or Lily decide to leave Clan Lord because of what happened, I will personally suffer a great loss and I believe our community will as well.

However, I don't think it was anyone's intent to drive them away and I truly thank everyone who has either apologized or written their support to urge them to stay, it is helping more than you know. Well done. Please keep it up.

Also, I think it is important to know that this is not just about what happened during the field trip (the Daimoth/Stinkfist/Drablak incident), but also because of the insults and disrespect and demeaning attacks on Drablak, Feodoric, and Lily on the Sentinel and in game that they endured for at least two full weeks prior to the trip.

Given the amount of personal time the Hel Tree Order (especially Feodoric, Drablak, and Lily) have put in for the UP course and the grief they had to endure for it, I would not blame them if they decide to go.

You should know that they are not the ones threatening or offering drama. I'm to blame for that. The only reason that you know that Drablak, Feodoric, and Lily are seriously considering leaving is because I made it known to you. I thought that many of you would want the opportunity to make your feelings known to them because, again, I don't believe that this was the outcome anyone wanted.

Drablak, Feo and Lily were just going to leave quietly after saying goodbye to their friends. It was no threat, They had been bullied for weeks following the decision to only make amulets on the University of Puddleby Field Trip. It was not just one person, it was too many people. One person, even two, they would have shrugged it off and dealt with it. The IC event with Stinkfist and Daimoth was just the straw that broke the camel's back. In many ways, the pre-trip grieving was worse.

A University of Puddleby class is not just a hunt. It took Feodoric no less than 10 hours per class to prepare, and Drablak and Lily a similar amount of time to help organize. This doesn't include the class itself. They would do research on the topics, discuss and write content, gather materials, recruit fighters and healers sufficient to support the number of weak players who would have a hard time handling the EP. That is a LOT of time to put in, almost a week of a full time job.

Further, a UP class isn't a clan activity where folks take on a challenge like the EP as a well-coordinated group, hand selected for their skills, attitudes, compatibility and teamwork. It isn't even an open hunt by an experienced group like Open Hands or NNK where strong coordinated support is available to shepherd the weak players. A UP class is open to all and you work with who shows up. That makes it difficult to manage in ways you probably understand better than I do.

One of the reasons that the UP classes stopped a couple of years ago is because it is a LOT of work. There is no such thing as a perfect time for a class. No matter when it is, someone's time zone will be left out.

But all in all, in this case, the grieving took place around one central theme: The decision of Hel Tree Order (Drablak, Feodoric, Lily) to only make amulets during the forge run.

Because they are such good role players, Lily offered an IC reason for that, and quite an interesting one, to liven up the real reasons, namely the UC was focusing on the amulets because they would be needed for subsequent classes and not enough people had one. Hel Tree Order spent a lot of their time collecting materials for everyone and thank you to all who donated materials for this purpose.

I have had individuals say "But I only wanted a portal island key" or "i only wanted an EPS." The problem was there were a LOT of individuals making requests of them. Too many for them to handle. So they devised an IC reason to say no.

Then, a number of players attacked them for that decision. Yet … it was Hel Tree Order's right to organize their hunt any way they wanted. If they only wanted to craft amulets for left handed zo's, that would have been well within their rights to do. It was their hunt.

Think about it, if you were organizing a hunt and a bunch of people came to you and said "Change your priorities and accommodate our needs at our convenience", how would you respond?

I've been told that the reason some people were so annoyed and felt justified in grieving is that there were too few trips to the EP Forge to make essential things like Ethereal Portal Stones and that it is the mystics' duty to do this for them, or what else are they good for? Hmmm ...

I'm scratching my head over that one. I read the posts and all who protested were strong fighters who had a network of strong fighters and healers either in their clans or among their friends or both. Why not just organize an EP hunt at your convenience and at a time that works for you?

The answer that I've gotten to that question is that mystics weren't available. I've asked around among the mystics and find that they are rarely asked for their support to go to the EP forge - but that they would love the opportunity to go to the forge more often!

Now this next part is speculation on my part. I do not know this for a fact because I'm not a mystic, but I suspect that mystic forge crafting is like any other skill. It takes a trainer, and the mystics have to earn ranks, probably by crafting items at the forge. Which means that if you want devices made in the future, it might be good to give mystics an opportunity to improve their skills with more forge trips that you organize.

However, Feo, Drablak and Lily were grieved even after they informed everyone that there would be other mystics on the EP field trip who could craft items for them. About then, it started becoming too much.

By the way, I did not know any of this because I don't read the Sentinel (because I am uncomfortable with the amount of flaming) and so I didn't see the response that Feo, Lily and Drablak were enduring. They never complained to me about it. Not once.

But it became too much. No one except Gloria came to their defense (thank you Gloria!) and they started wondering if the majority of people felt as the grievers did, and that all that they accomplished with their attempts at classes was a waste of their own time and the enmity of those they had considered friends.

So, even if they decide to stay, I don't know whether Feodoric or anyone will want to continue UP classes. It is a LOT of work, and there is only so much punishment volunteers can take before deciding that donating their free time is no longer worth the effort. Given the number of people who attended the classes, they got far more grief than thanks and far more criticism than kudos. They deserve better.

These good people have been exceptionally generous with their time and talents. They are kind and gracious to all, and imaginative and talented role players. They are the kind of players that make Clan Lord transcend all other games. We put a great deal of our human selves into it. Often, our actions impact the clickers, as much as or more, than they affect the characters. This issue is not about IC. It is about OOC. Real people being hurt.

If all of them decide to leave, the impact on the rest of us (and we are many) who love their kind of play and love spending time with them (both the clickers and the characters) is devastating. But I would not blame them for going.

However, I also want to say that I hope that Daimoth, Stinkfist, Wangah Rah, Malkor and the other wicked characters we love to spar with don't turn into choir boys over this. Something electric and exciting would leave the game if our bad boys and girls decide to leave the dark side.

And I sincerely want to thank Daimoth and Stinkfist for their truly honest attempts to make amends to Drablak, Feo and Lily OOC and to thank all of you who wrote publicly supporting them. As Drablak said last night "It made me go from determined to leave to considering staying."

Your kind words and your support are making all the difference. I think that Drablak, Feo, and Lily are reconsidering. I urge you to read their posts at http://h3o.ca/bb/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=362&p=844#p844

At least, I hope they are reconsidering.

If they decide to stay, I for one intend to fight this out IC where it belongs, with high drama and low cunning and skullduggery, as Gaia intended.

Lily, Drablak, Feodoric -- Don't go. We need you.

Sincerely,
Harper

I am glad an investigation is underway, and I hope the miscreants are apprehended, charged and tried as soon as may be.

I also really wish the time worked better for me to attend the classes and trips!

I will try organizing one at a time I can make it. Looking at the items one could make; is it actually possible that we could build more kyuems?

Dear Eiran,

Thank you for those kind words. As to the kyeum ... Apparently there are only three Mystics who can make them - Drablak, Wangah Rah, and Callia - but I am not sure about that. Callia is not often seen. Drablak is thinking of leaving. Which leaves Wangah Rah with a monopoly on the craft. Look to your purses, Puddleby.

Please see Drablak's post here http://h3o.ca/bb/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=362&p=844#p844

It explains his perspective of the events surrounding this incident but he also provides important and little known information about EP crafting, which, ironically, was part of what the University of Puddleby EP classes were about.

Sincerely,
Harper

Maybe this whole thing can help create more understanding in the community, in the long run?

Just to clarify... being a strong fighter and knowing lots of strong fighters and healers doesn't help when something requires a mystic, y'know? So not sure why there is confusion there... we're not lazy or complainy, we simply don't have access to a crafter. Such is the game design. However, my upsetness was not caused by "OMG I can't have my items!1" but by what I perceived as a lack of helpfulness and community spirit on the topic of crafting items. (Hoggle expressed the feeling quite well in his post.)

But obviously, what the Hel Tree is doing with these classes is very much in the spirit of community and I'm very sorry to have overlooked that in the frustration of my posts. I wasn't part of any in-game griefing nor would I be but if my posts here contributed to hurt feelings, I am very sorry. They were intended as criticism, not "leave clan lord, you suck." My feelings about the original topic and the way it was handled haven't changed, but I want everyone who got hurt to know that you are appreciated and I really really hope you don't leave! Even if our paths don't cross in game, every part of our small community is important and helps make it stronger.

Tabatha, I think you are right. This can lead to better understanding, and thank you for helping to make that happen. . According to Drablak, no one has ever asked him to go with them to the forge to craft items. Ever. It could be that what we have is just a communication problem. Easily solved by folks of good will.

After a quick read of that link, it's pretty clear (and I knew it before I read those posts) that the issue isn't a reaction over a depart.

Mystics by their very nature are completely and absolutely reliant on the fighters and healers in the group to, in many cases, make it a dozen steps in some areas. Far, far beyond the cost of the departs, this damaged severely that trust relationship. Again, it's not about the depart.

It's about the broken trust. And in a sense it is worse because the people that broke that trust don't even know what they did. They focus on the depart and "don't get" what the uproar is about.

I believe that they didn't foresee the repercussions of their actions. I also believe that the real amends to be made is making the effort to understand the mindset of the other side and that I think won't happen.