The Clan Lord Sentinel

I like to poke the trolls every once in a while, and for that I deserve flames, but often people are just stating their opinion and some people treat it like an personal affront to them. For this they are responded to with open hostility, and to that I say, "please tone it down." Just because someone thinks your idea is stupid or lame doesn't mean they're being mean. This is driving people away from the boards and could help drive people away from the game. If some people who are insistent that they're voicing opinions that are important to hear, they should realize that every voice they silence in their path of destruction is counter to their aim of hearing from all sides of an issue. Please keep it to FWitB, or don't post at all. If you read something you want to flame in another forum try to walk away from it and come back when you can read the criticism with a more objective point of view, then reply. Just because someone thinks you're full of it, doesn't mean you have to escalate it to a flame war. Try to read between the lines of these posts and get to the heart of the matter: does their post have any valid criticisms that might be masked with poor choice of attitude? If so, address the meaning of the message, not the diction of the message, in your reply to them. A poor choice of words often has a message that might be a valid concern. Derision of people does not score you any points in the grand scheme of things. It might be fun to poke the trolls, but please do it in the appropriate forum. When making a side point, start a new thread for it, in the appropriate area. I'm not suggesting you censor yourself, I'm suggesting you moderate yourself and put things in their proper places. It's okay to call someone an idiot in FW, it's not in other place. Keep things on topic, and if you have a point to make, make it and stay out of the gutter. While you CAN stoop to someone else's level, the board and the population is better served by keeping a level head, and either replying with care or not justifying the remarks with a response in the first place.

I was going to put this in the OOC area, but on second thought, I want to foster a positive discussion of this issue. So, I'm putting it in a place I can moderate it, and not let it slide into a flame war. I want this to be a positive discussion, so I'll edit any posts with flamage in them. You have been warned. Criticism of other players is welcome, open attacks are not. I.E. "Reckinyards is a tard." will be struck, while "I wish Newman would post more well thought out ideas, and consider his posts more carefully." or "I wish Maeght would not just turn things around on people, and address their points." or "I wish Cinnamon would act more mature." are valid criticisms.

What? No. That's pretty stupid. If it hurts to poke yourself there, don't poke yourself there. People are stupid and look to point fingers away from their own stupidity.

Cinnamon wrote:What? No. That's pretty stupid. If it hurts to poke yourself there, don't poke yourself there. People are stupid and look to point fingers away from their own stupidity.

Need more content. If you mean flames directed at: those really don't get to me at all. So, no it's not hurting me to poke the trolls. It's more amusement really. I usually ignore the flamage, and focus on the message anyway. What does get to me is the sidetracking and intentional derailing of threads more. I understand conversations flow, but some of it is ridiculous.

noivad wrote:What does get to me is the sidetracking and intentional derailing of threads more. I understand conversations flow, but some of it is ridiculous.

You don't get to decide what direction discussions take. Nor do you get to decide if the direction is "sidetracked" or "derailed". Note: I am not speaking of trolling. However, many times genuine discussion is labeled wrongly as "trolling".

Fogtripper wrote:

noivad wrote:What does get to me is the sidetracking and intentional derailing of threads more. I understand conversations flow, but some of it is ridiculous.

You don't get to decide what direction discussions take. Nor do you get to decide if the direction is "sidetracked" or "derailed". Note: I am not speaking of trolling. However, many times genuine discussion is labeled wrongly as "trolling".

That's true Fogtripper. Trolling a is very specific activity that's done to set off a negative emotional response from someone.

I'm not talking about me deciding whether a post is sidetracking or derailing, I'm talking about the author or the post deciding if they are doing that and self-moderating themselves and putting thread derailer replies in FW and sidetracking in a new topic. That is all.

Noivad, your view on this?:

Iriel_Red wrote:

Fogtripper wrote:

Cinnamon wrote:Bicks, Pucks, I suck at names.

99.999999999999999% of the player base can enter neither.

Well thank heavens this was posted in the NEWBIE section, then.

EDIT: OOPS I pressed the wrong button and edited Foggy's post. sorry. The following is my reply to his question above.

I'm pretty sure this comment is sarcastic in tone, but its not necessarily a troll. It's grey area unless it was a serious reply, after all Newbie's wouldn't know upper level can't get into Bicks. Without asking the poster, we can't know what the message was. Was it a joke, a snark, a true literal comment. Instead of ponder the intention of said comment, I'd let it slide as far as making a snarky comment back -- which is the most destructive route back to the poster -- because all we can do is moderate our own behavior.

You in particular Fog, have built an enemies list I've noticed, so I'm not surprised if you're getting snarks. It will take extra patience on your part until people realize you're operating with restraint and back off you. That's if you chose to of course. If you want to continue hostilities, without considering the ramifications -- and how it ultimately hurts yourself (which I won't go into) -- then continue to greet posts as hostile ones and respond in kind. I just beg to your, and everyone else's sense of right, to consider alternative ways to express your displeasure that don't escalate things. For instance you could have replied, "What do you mean, are you serious or being sarcastic or making a crack to be funny? If you're being snarky, that's just rude."

Fogtripper wrote:Noivad, your view on this?:

I certainly can't speak for Noivad, but my view is that you had the opportunity to show your maturity and let it pass, but instead chose to complain about it both there and here.

Civility doesn't arise spontaneously, via edict from on high, or even through aggressive moderation. Civility happens because some people make the choice to be civil, and part of that is suffering the slings and arrows of the non-participants until they start to feel like the outsiders and give it up. Which group would you rather be a part of it?

Skirwan wrote:

Fogtripper wrote:Noivad, your view on this?:

I certainly can't speak for Noivad, but my view is that you had the opportunity to show your maturity and let it pass, but instead chose to complain about it both there and here.

Civility doesn't arise spontaneously, via edict from on high, or even through aggressive moderation. Civility happens because some people make the choice to be civil, and part of that is suffering the slings and arrows of the non-participants until they start to feel like the outsiders and give it up. Which group would you rather be a part of it?

You must be quite the sensitive little flower to read such into an emoticon and a simple question. A great deal of said hostility could be removed if folks like you didn't read into things too much.

Skirwan wrote:

Fogtripper wrote:Noivad, your view on this?:

I certainly can't speak for Noivad, but my view is that you had the opportunity to show your maturity and let it pass, but instead chose to complain about it both there and here.

Civility doesn't arise spontaneously, via edict from on high, or even through aggressive moderation. Civility happens because some people make the choice to be civil, and part of that is suffering the slings and arrows of the non-participants until they start to feel like the outsiders and give it up. Which group would you rather be a part of it?

Skirwan here is the perfect place to discuss that post without letting it get out of hand. But I agree with the rest of your post.

I can't quote the posts because there are too many embeds, but the Cinnamon/Fogtripper/Iriel post that had the 3 comments didn't seem bad to me at all. If we can't make jokes that aren't personal but are a little sarcastic, it seems like overkill.

Also, Noivad, responding inside someone else's post, although you can do it as a moderator, is entirely too confusing.

Lorikeet wrote:I can't quote the posts because there are too many embeds, but the Cinnamon/Fogtripper/Iriel post that had the 3 comments didn't seem bad to me at all. If we can't make jokes that aren't personal but are a little sarcastic, it seems like overkill.

Also, Noivad, responding inside someone else's post, although you can do it as a moderator, is entirely too confusing.

oops I almost did it again.... that edit button is too close to the quote button! Yeah, I know if can be confusing -- it really was an accident.

Well, lori, you certainly can (it just helps if you label such comments AS sarcastic jokes.) In fact, I recommended letting it slide or at most responding with a question of intent. It didn't seem that bad to me either, but we weren't on the receiving end of the comment. To an outsider it looks like a quip, but if you're the target it might seem like a rude remark. Again, point is, moderate your own behavior, let other people's posts fall where they may.

Iriel_Red wrote:

Fogtripper wrote:

Cinnamon wrote:Bicks, Pucks, I suck at names.

99.999999999999999% of the player base can enter neither.

Well thank heavens this was posted in the NEWBIE section, then.

And here is where I agree 100% with Fogtripper:

Fogtripper wrote:A great deal of said hostility could be removed if folks like you didn't read into things too much.

What happens on the Sentinel in no way affects my enthusiasm for the game itself, only my enthusiasm for the Sentinel. Which is certainly at an all-time low right now. I know I don't want to receive or make any more personal attacks (which I did for the first time ever and feel very bad about). :/ I would like to try to get along with everyone, with the understanding that there will be disagreements but it doesn't have to get personal or nasty.

EDIT: I guess what I'm saying here is while a true "clean slate" wouldn't be possible with all the history here, maybe it would be nice to at least try to respond only to the topics at hand without bringing in past issues or resentments. A slightly-less-dirty slate, I guess.

I am not sure if fwitb has eased or exacerbated this whole situation.

it is entirely possible to be an ass and make a point and have people not hate (too much).

be funny.

Noivad wrote:I'm pretty sure this comment is sarcastic in tone, but its not necessarily a troll. It's grey area unless it was a serious reply, after all Newbie's wouldn't know upper level can't get into Bicks. Without asking the poster, we can't know what the message was. Was it a joke, a snark, a true literal comment. Instead of ponder the intention of said comment, I'd let it slide as far as making a snarky comment back -- which is the most destructive route back to the poster -- because all we can do is moderate our own behavior.

You in particular Fog, have built an enemies list I've noticed, so I'm not surprised if you're getting snarks. It will take extra patience on your part until people realize you're operating with restraint and back off you. That's if you chose to of course. If you want to continue hostilities, without considering the ramifications -- and how it ultimately hurts yourself (which I won't go into) -- then continue to greet posts as hostile ones and respond in kind. I just beg to your, and everyone else's sense of right, to consider alternative ways to express your displeasure that don't escalate things. For instance you could have replied, "What do you mean, are you serious or being sarcastic or making a crack to be funny? If you're being snarky, that's just rude."

That's awesome Noivad.I made a statement about Bicks/Pucks and was trolled immediately. This is the shit that folks apparently have problems seeing. You are right, that it is my reactions that get flagged.

Lorikeet wrote:I can't quote the posts because there are too many embeds, but the Cinnamon/Fogtripper/Iriel post that had the 3 comments didn't seem bad to me at all. If we can't make jokes that aren't personal but are a little sarcastic, it seems like overkill.

No Lori, it was a simple attempt to troll. I have been accused in the past of "shitting" on newbie questions threads, and Irel was trying to push buttons to see if she could get me to do so.