The Clan Lord Sentinel

I don't really know why only new exiles can enter Bick's, but I assume it's to give new players a place thatt is all their own. The reallity is that Bick's is a trap. If someone (I know I've done it) ventures into Bick's tavern and goes down into the basement thay face an assortment of skelitons and spiders and it's sometime easy to get trappes and fall down there. The problem is that no experienced exiles can get down there to help you and so you end up becoming stuck because there just isn't enough low level exhiles to go in and give you a hand. The restrictions have to either a) be lifted or b) the diffuculty has to be dropped way down

I've seen this happen a lot, especially in the newbie hunting ground in south farms. It's usually very difficult to get a rescue there because a) there aren't many newbies, and b) because the newbies end up falling too. What usually ends up happening is the more experienced players take their alts out of the library, and save the day.



I don't see why newbies need their own hunting ground. There's plenty of places where newbies can find the skeletals, arachne, and IPs that aren't overhunted by higher level exiles. The areas are also too tough for most newbies. You'd have to be a mid to high level newbie fighter in order to actually hunt in those areas, at which point you're almost too strong to hunt in those areas anyway.



Maybe there could be a fun quest or something for newbies to complete, but creating a newbie only area with midlevel critters is just asking for trouble.



-Lundar

Well... I suppose Bick's is a death trap.



I think the point is that it's supposed to provide "the Clan Lord experience" for the newer set. That is, a place where when you go there, it's a dangerous place, and you need to depend on your team to survive, and if you die, you'll probably have to depart. The point isn't the departing, the point is the absence of a safety net, a place where you get that extra thrill of knowing that failure is a real and serious option.



I like the idea of Bick's, that such a place would be available even for newbies. There should be places where older exiles can't come in and save the day. However, Bick's is a bit extreme, the limit on entering is pretty low, and there isn't much graduation to the danger. That is, it gets really dangerous right away, rather than having a set of several gradually more difficult snells.

I think it's a deathtrap. I've seen what Srago Neas and Lundar describe happen quite a bit. I would not recommend it for new exiles. There are other places they can go for as good or better experience without the complications.

I voted Top Priority because I wanted it to be tough, a "death trap." That's what the poll meant, right?



Seriously, though, it's meant to be a tough, "no net"-type of place where low level exiles can hunt without a higher-level exile sweeping in to save the day. It's in for variety.



If you want someplace where your uber-high-level can simply block for your newbie, go to the Undine Hut. I see that happen frequently, as it is.



As for Bick's, it's tough...and I like it that way.



[However, I'll monitor it more closely to see if it's too tough for a 4 exile party of low-level.]

Hm, OK, fair enough.



Maybe Edden Fargle should offer some sort of warning to that effect? It seems like most people think of Bick's an "easier" place for Puddleby's newbies.



I'm still not sure what incentive newbies have to go in there, though. Can't they find challenging places elsewhere without the possibiity of waiting for a healer?

Would it be possible to put in an illusion for those places so that a mystic could open them up for a rescue when no exile can enter? It often happens that all exiles of the appropriate level are *inside* those areas and fallen.



That would solve some of the problems, sometimes, without making it an open door.



Drablak

Paramedic wrote:Hm, OK, fair enough.



Maybe Edden Fargle should offer some sort of warning to that effect? It seems like most people think of Bick's an "easier" place for Puddleby's newbies.



I'm still not sure what incentive newbies have to go in there, though. Can't they find challenging places elsewhere without the possibiity of waiting for a healer?

Yeah, something like he blocks the stairs down, and only moves if you say yes to "Are you really sure you want me to move out of the way? More experienced people won't be able to come down there to help you." Then he moves aside for 5 minutes or whatever. That way at least you know what you're getting into.

Eldon wrote:Seriously, though, it's meant to be a tough, "no net"-type of place where low level exiles can hunt without a higher-level exile sweeping in to save the day.

Well, what usually ends up happening is that the higher-level exile has to pull out their low level library character from the library to save the day.



If the GMs really feel the necessity for such an area, there should at least be a little more warning, something along the lines of:



"The following is a very dangerous area that can be entered only by newbies. If you fall, recue may be impossible. Enter at your own risk."



Any sort of warning would be better than a deathtrap disguised as a pub.



-Lundar

I agree with Eldon. And plus, it only takes one fall to learn that a new exile isn't going to solo that area.

It's an area for groups of "newbs" to group together and try to hunt... though most find it preferable to tag along and rankwhore next to willing, experienced exiles (which aren't too hard to find. Who doesn't want newbie shares?)



A large enough group could handle it, I'm sure, with little/mid experience.

Lundar wrote:

Eldon wrote:Seriously, though, it's meant to be a tough, "no net"-type of place where low level exiles can hunt without a higher-level exile sweeping in to save the day.

Any sort of warning would be better than a deathtrap disguised as a pub.

Lundar sums up my thoughts.

Yes to deathraps for newbies.

Yes to cool pubs for newbies only, I guess.

But a deathtrap pub, right in the middle of town÷ apart from rat towers, all buildings are safe so this one doesn't make sense imo. Or at least give it a warning, like a very creepy look.



Also, I'm not sure of the incentive for newbies to go risk their life in there, when they can hunt similar creatures in rescuable areas not so far.

Maybe give them a better reward for adventuring there?

I don't like Bick's (or the game preserve). If my character "advances", he shouldn't be penalized by losing access to things. Especially since he has spent his training to be able to do exactly the thing Bick's is designed to prevent him from doing (rescuing newbies and lowbies in and near town). Further, as others have pointed out, players routinely metagame the situation, performing the rescue with throwaway lowbie characters (who have no reluctance to depart), which largely defeats the entire point of these places.



If we wish to preserve the "no possibility of rescue" experience (something I've always done my best to avoid), we could create a "hunter's preserve" island. Use some fiction similar to those "man hunting man" or the darker of the "fantasy island" stories: The island's local "sadistic overlord" NPC tells the exiles that he controls the island, and controls whoever enters and can leave. He enjoys watching exiles struggle and overcome when tested to their limits, and he will allow the exiles to use the island, so long as they understand that he will not allow anyone to be rescued.



So far, this is just like Bick's. But when the prospective party exits the entry room, their collective ability is recorded and used to set the level of content of the rest of the island (lowbies get low level monsters, elders get high level, etc). In this way the experience becomes available to every level of exile. No other exiles can enter the island while this party is there, which not only prevents rescue, but reinforcement as well. In fact, a really clever GM could implement the island by borrowing WoW's dungeon design, where each party gets it's own individual instance (copy) of the island (destroyed when the last of the party exits).



This would be better than bicks and the game preserve, since it would be available to all exiles, but be far away from where newbies are likely to stumble in by accident. It would also have a much more believable fiction (for those of us who hated losing access to places like bick's, even though we thought we had earned the right to rescue there).



-jrr

I remember the rat hut in east fields was considered a death trap to some, because it could suddenly become overwhelmed with rats, and newbies hunting there could be caught unawares. Same with the well in one of the east farms. Nasty spiders. At least they had the potential of being rescued, although not always.



So Bick's is an area where newbies can fall and have to be forced to a) be rescued by other newbies or b) depart. When I was a newbie, though, if I fell somewhere and was forced to depart owing to circumstances, that was the end of that area being further investigated until better prepared or better trained.



I think Bick's area is self-defeating. There's no real reward for going down into the basement since you can tackle those kind of critters elsewhere with better hope of assistance. Hey, maybe it's good depart experience?



Heck, I like rescuing newbies at times. I get to show off a bit.

Odesseus wrote:So Bick's is an area where newbies can fall and have to be forced to a) be rescued by other newbies or b) depart. When I was a newbie, though, if I fell somewhere and was forced to depart owing to circumstances, that was the end of that area being further investigated until better prepared or better trained.



I think Bick's area is self-defeating. There's no real reward for going down into the basement since you can tackle those kind of critters elsewhere with better hope of assistance. Hey, maybe it's good depart experience?



Heck, I like rescuing newbies at times. I get to show off a bit.

I never claimed Bick's and Hunting Preserve were for everyone. They are what they are, and they add variety to the game. My feelings aren't hurt if some (or even most) think that there's better hunting elsewhere.



And, the Pub part is creature-free. It's the basement that's the killer.



I'll think about adding an additional warning that the Basement is dangerous.

Hint: sometimes, you don't win. omg.