The Clan Lord Sentinel

Salandra · by **Salandra** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 1:51 am

Noivad made this post in another forum and I'm replying here. 1st Post is a reference post.

noivad wrote:I had a conversation last night with someone and that person mentioned something about "Joe's vision" now shackling the game from being what it could be. I suggested perhaps it's time for Joe to have "Vision 2.0" -- you know: mystic with shieldstones, fighters with purg pendants, mystics that could summon people, sharks with frickin' lasers! etc.

Joe did say he'd was going to try to get the numbers up. Perhaps he's already re-evaluated the game and changes are a'comin. But if he hasn't perhaps he should put "fun" in the foundation, and focus on changes that will make people want to play more, and allow all types of play-styles in it. You know: solo hunters being able to do their thing, groups able to rank whore if they find that fun.

I remember some of the tenets of CL are "unfun things shouldn't be rewarded." and "the risk is the reward" Perhaps there should be new tenets like "overly frustrating things shouldn't be implemented, unless they're puzzles.", "fun comes in all shapes and sizes.", and "The reward should be worth the risk." If a person doesn't HAVE to do something, and does it anyway, they must consider it fun. Instead of stifling someone's fun because I don't think it's fun, perhaps we should examine what makes it fun to them and channel that into a new feature. For instance people used to make valley runs last for hours. They're run back and forth while it spawned and spend all day having fun. To a GM it might have looked like people were doing this monotonous action: "4 snells East, 4 snells west...." But to the players it was "Hunt where is a challenge to us we can manage." Instead of looking at it and going: People love the valley, but they're doing this monotonous running back and forth. We should make the hunt longer so they're less likely to WANT to run back and forth. So, we should make the Valley bigger (like people suggested); they decreased spawns so people would run through once and have to move on. That's just one example. I'm sure people can come up with others.

As far as Ranger OPness. That's a problem. But instead of going how can we nerf them, I think it should be, "how can we make playing other sub-classes more fun, and rebalance monsters with rangers in mind?" But knowing DT, you're right Cinn, that's probably not going ot happen.

Salandra · by **Salandra** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 2:30 am

noivad wrote:I had a conversation last night with someone and that person mentioned something about "Joe's vision" now shackling the game from being what it could be. I suggested perhaps it's time for Joe to have "Vision 2.0" -- you know: mystic with shieldstones, fighters with purg pendants, mystics that could summon people, sharks with frickin' lasers! etc.

Noivad and I were the ones talking about this and he encouraged me to make a post so I'm following his lead and doing so.

The basic tenet that I brought up was that I felt that too many of the design choices were being limited by what I referred to a "Joe's Vision" preventing what I felt like would be a more enjoyable playing experience for the players. He asked what I meant by this and my reply was basically anything that fell into the category of not being added because "It's not CL enough" or not something Fighters/Healers/Mystics should do so no x/y/z can't do it. Now there has always got to be a limit somewhere and I doubt anyone would say differently but honestly I think CL is at the point where "The Vision" needs to be expanded some to let in some more fun ideas that might not be exactly what was planned for when CL was first started but would add a lot of fun for the people who are playing today. The key premise being add fun things that are outside the original vision just to make the whole game more fun.

I have specific examples but I'll let people digest what's been said and see how things go before I get into that. Noivad listed a bunch and I think those are good enough to get the ball rolling if people want to talk about it.

One of my biggest concerns with bringing this topic up, and I shared this with Noivad, was that a GM or GMs would take it as a "GM Bashing" comment/thread... That's not my intention in the least and from talking to Noivad thats not his. One of the reasons its in this forum is because Noivad said he would monitor it and keep it from getting out of hand. Other than the general wish for better things, and perhaps a more unhappy feeling towards specific mystic skills/tools design, I've been very impressed with what the work that the GMs have been doing and the new areas, some of the best yet, that they've been making for us.

Fogtripper · by **Fogtripper** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 5:48 am

I too feel frustrated at times when I hear "that's not CL". I kind of accepted that back when it was vanilla fighters/healers/mystics. Now that it's become vanilla mystics/healers versus bells and whistles out the wazoo multiple subclasses that can shape shift, speed boost, turn to stone, mass-incinerate, suck the blood for powerful uses...

Yeah, "not the CL vision" doesn't quite hold water anymore. Not when one class has been allowed to go gangbusters towards whatever fun stuff can be thought up and programmer has the willingness to program.

edit: The sandbox is still here, and thanks for that. However when one class gets Tonka trucks, Micronauts, Star Wars action figures (the originals) and fireworks, while the others are still left with Legos®... eh.

Gloria · by **Gloria** » Fri Jun 26, 2009 3:01 pm

I really don't agree with subclasses for any class. These are part of the original 'vision' for fighters only. I will do my best to defend healers from subclasses (and the divisions and tensions they imply). It is much better in my opinion to have every new ability open to the entire class at once.

I actually agree with and support the idea of the 'vision'. It really is an important guiding principle for CL. I believe in maintaining the 'vision', but I think something must be done to give mystics a bit of a break. To an outsider, the mystic class needs some vitality that might involve crossing the boundary of the current 'vision' for that class. A good example would be the 'staff of the little people' that Salandra mentioned in another thread. If only three people have completed the requirement, that seems too restrictive. I also mean in terms of new content for mystics, not just old.

Cinnamon · by **Cinnamon** » Mon Jun 29, 2009 4:26 am

Gloria wrote:I really don't agree with subclasses for any class.

These are part of the original 'vision' for fighters only.

No. Subclasses aren't part of the original vision at all. The original vision is 2 classes. Not even Mystics are part of the original vision.

So much for The Vision. It's past time for a new vision.

Destian · by **Destian** » Tue Jan 14, 2014 6:55 am

I'm going to necro the bejeezus out of this post because A) it's still on the front page of the forum and B) it's highly relevant to the current status of CL.

I've not personally always liked Joe's vision, but I begrudgingly admit that what it does right, it does VERY right. Personal progress in CL, for example, is handled in such a way that you truly feel it. You start in the rat towers and slowly but surely, the rest of the world gradually becomes more manageable for you (if you're a fighter, that is). This is the kind of feel-good progress that ultimately makes you want to push onward.

However, much like a bullet fired from a pistol, a vision becomes less accurate the further it travels and through no fault of its creator. CL was designed around the idea that there wouldn't be a solo game because it never appeared there would be a need for such a thing. But flash forward to today and it's a different story.

Nowadays, fighters and healers can both go coining and muck about in game while waiting for a hunt to pop up, truly a great thing, even if it wouldn't have been called "very clanlord" a while back.

But the issue we have now is that CL has become an "oldboy" game in many ways: all new content is being designed for max level players while very little has been done to give new players a much-needed speed boost so they can enjoy the game with the rest of the community.

Again, no one can really blame Joe for this, but just as Slarty addressed a huge issue when he gave healers pets (something that also wouldn't be considered "very clanlord"), the time has come to do something for new players.

noivad · by **noivad** » Fri Feb 07, 2014 8:30 pm

I have been away for quite some time —only occasionally popping in for the open hunt, and I like what I have seen the past month in terms of player numbers and new (to me) content. CL could always use more resources, but new areas are just as compelling with good groups.

I think a lot of the new content keeps oldbies playing which is the core of the game these days, and I think efforts should continue. Given the lack of resources, I think some areas that are currently dead zones could be retooled to attract younger players. Not only in terms of spawn difficultly, but graphics and creature variation could be adjusted. The old areas pale in comparison to the new areas for more than just difficulty. If just the graphics were updated, it would added greatly to the interest in exploration.

If myrm hive (1) were updated to look as good as the estuary with a few more aggressive feraling and difficult to predict behavior myrm, it would be a reasonable hunting ground for new people to cut their teeth on group hunting. As it is now, I do no hear about anyone going there. If the GMs have a way to meter area traffic, it would be a good way to detect when an area needs a facelift. (They could even script it into the game — areas ages, and gets overgrown and more varied creatures evolve, etc.)

There is a lot that can be done, but limited volunteer resources. Short of a new version of CL, I see no other choice but to update the current game to be more appealing to new players while maintaining focus on old player improvements. So, this might be a way out of the current loop. The game is closing in one its second decade. I am pretty sure Joe never foresaw it lasting as long as it has. Who could? What online game has remained playable and enjoyable this long?

And yes, visions should be checked from time to time. I think the current direction is great though, now if only we could get mystics into the combat mix. Something as simple as being able to score a snell out and show everyone where the largest threats are or cause a slowdown of enemies by a time distortion within a radius of them, etc. might not “be CL”, but would be pretty cool.