The Clan Lord Sentinel

From the IC Algy thread:

Cinnamon wrote:Without that bit of free horus (and it's not 24/7, he is often unavailable) I would wager attendance would falter. Casual clanning would dwindle even more. I wonder how many of the AlgerHaters refuse healing from him and have never been raised with his assistance. You may say, "How can I prevent someone from making him heal me?" Put your ranks where your mouth is and /depart. You may say, "Why should I depart because of someone else's actions?" Because you're an RPG purist and purity has a price, just ask anyone who has devoted themselves to purity (your local religous leaders).

I don't know what the attitude of the current GM base is, but I can tell you that during the Rip War, one RPG purist, Skye, was verbally abused on a regular basis by GMs for absolutely and unconditionally refusing to depart from inside Soulglasses. That verbal attacks that I personally witnessed came from Chum and "the Vampyre", but it wasn't just those two. The nature of the attacks was blatantly OOC.



Whether Skye's character's obsession with never departing (and IC he had what worked out to be a religious objection to EVER departing) was sane given the context of the game is debatable, but the point is that the GMs at that time made it clear that his purist RP was not acceptable to them within the framework of the game they were trying to run.



If we were working within the framework of a game where purist RP was encouraged and enforced by the folks who created the game (and, point, I've done that with MuDs), I'd be a helluva lot more respectful of the purist RP point of view, both in game and out. As it is, we're not. CL's RP enviroment is a big, blurry grey line, and that's not just because we have a player base that goes both ways.



So keep firing your big guns at those of us who deal with the game the way it's been set up, and keep dreaming your CL as pure RP dream.



Or SACWA (pure RP CL) G.

I think Algy's fine. He's a tiny exception in the many loopholes of RPness of the bizarre and tumultuous world that is CL.



If you don't like him, ignore him.



Relax. Repeat after me: It's only a game, it's only a game....

I don't know if I can take sides in this - both sides have very good arguments to support their position. But I will say this...



If you are a healer and you don't like the idea that Algy has all these healer ranks - YOU can beat him. To paraphrase Hidden, any living "real" healer can outperform Algy any day. Yes, some people go right to him, but try to intercept them and start healing them first. Try noticing when wounded come to town the minute they do and get to them right away, so they don't see you as a "lazy town healer" (not defending the stereotype, just pointing out that some people DO get this impression).



This won't stop Algy from helping heal badly fallen, but it will help turn newbies away from him and toward real healers.

zen wrote:
I don't know what the attitude of the current GM base is, but I can tell you that during the Rip War, one RPG purist, Skye, was verbally abused on a regular basis by GMs for absolutely and unconditionally refusing to depart from inside Soulglasses. That verbal attacks that I personally witnessed came from Chum and "the Vampyre", but it wasn't just those two. The nature of the attacks was blatantly OOC.



Whether Skye's character's obsession with never departing (and IC he had what worked out to be a religious objection to EVER departing) was sane given the context of the game is debatable, but the point is that the GMs at that time made it clear that his purist RP was not acceptable to them within the framework of the game they were trying to run.

The nature of this story seems to be a specific and narrow case. I was unable to attend the RipWar and do no know what was happening in Soulglasses what the purpose of the depart was and why the GMs cared if anyone departed.

This is the only case where the GMs intervened to this extent that I've ever heard of, but then I'm pretty ignorant for such an old player. It seems odd to me. What were the results for not departing?

Zen wrote:
If we were working within the framework of a game where purist RP was encouraged and enforced by the folks who created the game (and, point, I've done that with MuDs), I'd be a helluva lot more respectful of the purist RP point of view, both in game and out. As it is, we're not. CL's RP enviroment is a big, blurry grey line, and that's not just because we have a player base that goes both ways.

What's an MuD? Forgive my ignorance, thank you.

How would one enforce RP? There have been some discussions about it. Not being an RP purist, I simply kept my distance. What constitutes a valid role to play? What sort of rewards/penalties would there be? Who would decide? It all sounds very subjective to me. With the GMs already being accused of favoritism, why would they open themselves up to similar attacks.

Zen wrote:
So keep firing your big guns at those of us who deal with the game the way it's been set up, and keep dreaming your CL as pure RP dream.



Or SACWA (pure RP CL) G.

I'm kinda lost here. What's your point (honest question, I'm not trying to be glib)? Your post is in response to my suggesting that those who don't like Algy should take all measures to exclude him from their life. This is something we all do at some point in our lives. For whatever reasons (not necessarily malicious) we refuse to associate and break off associations with specific people.

Cinnamon wrote:
What's an MuD?

I believe it stands for multi user dungeon but thats not very helpful. To better describe, this are online rpgs, but they are textbased and have no graphics. I've never played one so I can't describe it any better but there are many other clanlord players who have experince with them.

Cinnamon wrote:I was unable to attend the RipWar and do no know what was happening in Soulglasses what the purpose of the depart was and why the GMs cared if anyone departed.

Don't know why the GMs were pushing Skye to depart, but it was quite difficult to rescue people from the rift. Imagine a snell completely filled with lava, except its black instead of lava colored. Most people chose to depart. Departing wasn't a real big deal at the time for most people since we were to all be reset soon anyway.



Possibly Skye needed to depart in order to get into Adytum?

Cinnamon wrote:What's an MuD?

Multi-User Dungeon (or Dimension). The old text based rpgs, they are still around on the net.



DT tends to refer to CL as a graphical MUD rather than an MMORPG.

I'll address points in order.

Odesseus wrote: I think Algy's fine. He's a tiny exception in the many loopholes of RPness of the bizarre and tumultuous world that is CL.



If you don't like him, ignore him.



Relax. Repeat after me: It's only a game, it's only a game....

Exactly the right attitude, but the problem anti-bot/RP purists have is that you can't ignore him if you're fallen and someone else tells him to heal you.

Lex wrote:This won't stop Algy from helping heal badly fallen, but it will help turn newbies away from him and toward real healers.

Again, doesn't address the problem that the anti-bot/RP purists bring up.

Cinnamon wrote:This is the only case where the GMs intervened to this extent that I've ever heard of, but then I'm pretty ignorant for such an old player. It seems odd to me. What were the results for not departing?

The results were that the Soulglass was closed and Skye was templed. Which was within existing game mechanics and neatly solved the problem. So what was the point of the anti-RP purist vitriol directed at Skye? I interpreted it as a statement of GM attitude at the time and I've never seen any indication from those who build and run the game that a sea change has occurred. I think they're pretty relaxed about RP in CL boss land, leaving it up to the players to enforce or not. There is a VERY small minority of players who are pure RP supporters, so I go along with the majority, even though I prefer pure RP.

Cinnamon wrote:How would one enforce RP?

Allow players to complain to Compla about people who are consistantly OOC in game (and on the Sentinel?! ) and after a set number of documented complaints, ban them.

Yes, that's how it's often done in strict MuDs.



(Baff's description of a MuD is accurate, to answer the "what's a MuD" question.)

Cinnamon wrote:What's your point (honest question, I'm not trying to be glib)?

I'll restate my point in my summation. I quoted your post, because a big part of what this whole Algy issue is actually about is pure RP versus relaxed RP, an issue I have strong opinions on. (Although Jeff apparently doesn't know what "pure RP" means, although I think he's being disingenous.)

Baff wrote:Don't know why the GMs were pushing Skye to depart, but it was quite difficult to rescue people from the rift. Imagine a snell completely filled with lava, except its black instead of lava colored. Most people chose to depart. Departing wasn't a real big deal at the time for most people since we were to all be reset soon anyway.



Possibly Skye needed to depart in order to get into Adytum?

It WAS difficult to rescue folks from a rift, but you were very good at it. I don't believe it had anything to do with getting into Adytum, and the nature of the argument from the GMs was "don't take it so seriously, man".





Restatement of points I'm trying to make:



1. Algy has been endorsed by the GMs. He's been an accepted part of the CL universe. This issue has been resolved, but some people just can't seem to let it go.

2. While I understand Jeff's argument against "exploits" (and, without a doubt, Algy is an "exploit"), the premise in classical MuDs that argues against "exploits" is that they are inherently Out of Character. Cheats are Out of Character. My point is, CL has historically been relaxed about OOC/IC issues, and that gives the GMs a platform to stand on in allowing Algy's existence.

3. I accept Algy's existence and am happy to have the opportunity to call him names in town. I totally support people (Shaky et al) who defend him IC. I think people who are upset OOC about abuse of Algy are silly beyond belief (you need to learn that how a ROLEPLAYER treats in-game characters is not NECESSARILY an indication of the ROLEPLAYER's ethical quality), and, while I understand the position of people who oppose his existence OOC, the GMs have spoken and it's to them I say SACWA (pure RP, no bot, no screwin' around) G.

zen wrote:...but the problem anti-bot/RP purists have is that you can't ignore him if you're fallen and someone else tells him to heal you.

Perhaps Algernon could be convinced (ooc programmed) to heal (with cad) only people who ask Algernon to heal themselves.



Taryn.

Taryn wrote:

zen wrote:...but the problem anti-bot/RP purists have is that you can't ignore him if you're fallen and someone else tells him to heal you.

Perhaps Algernon could be convinced (ooc programmed) to heal (with cad) only people who ask Algernon to heal themselves.



Taryn.

That would be the discretion of his owner.

You can contact him through Algycam

http://www.windsofdawn.org/algy/



Try putting your idea forward there and see if it happens.



It might hurt the occasional afk fallen but well its their fault for not paying attention

Zen wrote:



> 1. Algy has been endorsed by the GMs.



Is that true? I thought they were told they couldn't do anything about him.





> This issue has been resolved, but some people just can't seem to let it go.



CL is a dynamic entity, and with enough effort literally anything can be changed.





> 2. While I understand Jeff's argument against "exploits" (and, without a doubt, Algy

> is an "exploit"), the premise in classical MuDs that argues against "exploits" is that

> they are inherently Out of Character. Cheats are Out of Character.

> My point is, CL has historically been relaxed about OOC/IC issues, and that gives the

> GMs a platform to stand on in allowing Algy's existence.



That's one workable viewpoint, true. I prefer a different point of view, that an exploit is anything that the game mechanics allow, but the designers didn't intend; by implication, designers do not intend things that are harmful to the world as a whole (destruction of the world via riftwar notwithstanding). Looking at designer intent can be somewhat iffy when applied to CL, since the designers often introduce things but refuse to tell us what their intent was (game of discovery, and all that), but this view seems to cover a wider range of issues than simply focusing on whether an exploit is IC or OOC.



In this case, my focus with Algerbot is on his effect on the game as a whole, not his interaction with roleplayers, and that's why I bring up things like "avoidance of cost of failure" and "negative effect on building community", which specifically relates to his having a lot of healer power. I've even implied a compromise, to strip him of his healing skill, but leaving the bot otherwise intact (ie, preserving the RP aspect of the AI), which would render him "mostly harmless".





> 3. ...while I understand the position of people who oppose his existence OOC, the GMs

> have spoken and it's to them I say SACWA (pure RP, no bot, no screwin' around) G.



The problem with SACWAG is that it isn't a realistic possibility for most people, myself included. Clan Lord is the only MMORPG I'll ever be able to contribute to or have an influence on it's future direction, so Clan Lord is where I push for my vision of how things could be better. This vision clashes with other visions, including that of many (most? all?) GM's, but that's ok; from the wreckage of the ensuing debates, the best ideas will survive.





Shakyamuni wrote:



> How does this discussion differ from those players who have pocket healers sitting in

> the library racking up horus and who only see the light of day when a fallen is around?

> The only difference I see is that Algy is accesible.



This is lame, too, but at least there is a real player behind a library healer, and they they won't be there 24/7; often, they won't come out except as a last resort, and rarely linger.





Mjollnir wrote:



> Some Algy haters either dont know or dont care just how difficult it is to get at any

> amount of horus in the off hours, mid-day GMT there can be as few as 1 healers

> available.



> If Algy is about he allows people who wouldnt normally be able to be healed to get

> raised. He allows people to wander into town hurt and get healed instead of having

> to just sit and wait for their troilus to heal them, a very useful thing when there

> are no healers in town.



I understand what you are saying, I just don't agree Algerbot is the right way to handle it. How about this instead:



0) Strip Algerbot of his healing powers. Permanently.

1) Create an NPC healer (ie, GM controlled) to handle the "low player population" issue.

2) Locate this NPC somewhere inside the healer temple, so he is nearby, but less convenient than using a town healer, and so he is not the first healer newbies encounter.

3) This healer CHARGES COINS for healing, so players will have a disincentive to use him over of a PC healer.

4) When the PC healer population is over a certain threshhold, the NPC healer closes up shop and goes fishing.



-jrr

Jeff Ray wrote:> This issue has been resolved, but some people just can't seem to let it go.



CL is a dynamic entity, and with enough effort literally anything can be changed.

That can be said of anything. There comes a time when it becomes prudent to "just drop it and move on" in any pursuit.

That's one workable viewpoint, true. I prefer a different point of view, that an exploit is anything that the game mechanics allow, but the designers didn't intend;

Algy is still around after how many weeks? 250+? That's over five years. Obviously, if he was against the intentions of the designers, then he would have been squashed by now. Unless you're calling the designers incompetent.

In this case, my focus with Algerbot is on his effect on the game as a whole, not his interaction with roleplayers, and that's why I bring up things like "avoidance of cost of failure" and "negative effect on building community", which specifically relates to his having a lot of healer power.

Have you considered that given how long Algy has been around for, that the game might be balanced partially with him in mind?

The problem with SACWAG is that it isn't a realistic possibility for most people, myself included.

I think I'll channel Chum for this one.



"You are mistaken. SACWAG is a realistic possibility for anyone. It just depends on the level of effort you put in to it. You could quit your job right now and spend all day every day for the next 5 years programming a kickass game, but I guess you just don't have the drive."

Clan Lord is the only MMORPG I'll ever be able to contribute to or have an influence on it's future direction, so Clan Lord is where I push for my vision of how things could be better.

Once again, "You are mistaken."

2) Locate this NPC somewhere inside the healer temple, so he is nearby, but less convenient than using a town healer, and so he is not the first healer newbies encounter.

This is a bad idea. It lowers the standard for town healers. Right now they have to compete in utility with Algy. If they didn't, they'd be even lazier.

3) This healer CHARGES COINS for healing, so players will have a disincentive to use him over of a PC healer.

How would you set the price? How would a newbie (few-no coins) get healed during low-population times?

4) When the PC healer population is over a certain threshhold, the NPC healer closes up shop and goes fishing.

And the PC healer population immediately drops down on their asses and doesn't move until a few of them decide to log out. GREAT idea. This would also encourage people to bring out their fighter characters to sit around town, which I consider a negative pressure.

Hidden wrote"



> There comes a time when it becomes prudent to "just drop it and move on" in any pursuit.



True. If I get to that point, I'll be sure to drop it and move on.







>> That's one workable viewpoint, true. I prefer a different point of view, that an exploit is

>> anything that the game mechanics allow, but the designers didn't intend;



> Algy is still around after how many weeks? 250+? That's over five years. Obviously, if he was

> against the intentions of the designers, then he would have been squashed by now. Unless you're

> calling the designers incompetent.



Letting players create bots to compete with other players is not part of the designers' intentions. That's why Algerbot is an exception, not the rule. Nor is incompetent the word I would use. Many of the ideas in CL are brilliant. Many others are asinine.







> Have you considered that given how long Algy has been around for, that the game might be balanced

> partially with him in mind?



It probably is, yes. That doesn't transform it into a good idea.





>> The problem with SACWAG is that it isn't a realistic possibility for most people, myself

>> included.





> I think I'll channel Chum for this one.



> "You are mistaken. SACWAG is a realistic possibility for anyone. It just depends on the level of

> effort you put in to it. You could quit your job right now and spend all day every day for the

> next 5 years programming a kickass game, but I guess you just don't have the drive."



Chum lives within his own Reality Distortion Field.







>> Clan Lord is the only MMORPG I'll ever be able to contribute to or have an influence on it's

>> future direction, so Clan Lord is where I push for my vision of how things could be better.





> Once again, "You are mistaken."



Often. But not, I think, on this.







>> 2) Locate this NPC somewhere inside the healer temple, so he is nearby, but less convenient than

>> using a town healer, and so he is not the first healer newbies encounter.





> This is a bad idea. It lowers the standard for town healers. Right now they have to compete in

> utility with Algy. If they didn't, they'd be even lazier.



I wasn't try to solve the "lazy town healer" problem. This was an (off the cuff) idea for solving the "not enough healers during off hours" problem.







>> 3) This healer CHARGES COINS for healing, so players will have a disincentive to use him over of

>> a PC healer.





> How would you set the price? How would a newbie (few-no coins) get healed during low-population

> times?



Price setting is a TBD. Poor folk can troilus, if they can walk back. If they have to be rescued, Algerbot isn't the one doing the rescuing, so they're no worse off than before.







>> 4) When the PC healer population is over a certain threshhold, the NPC healer closes up shop and

>> goes fishing.





> And the PC healer population immediately drops down on their asses and doesn't move until a few of

> them decide to log out. GREAT idea. This would also encourage people to bring out their fighter

> characters to sit around town, which I consider a negative pressure.



I don't see how you reach these cases. Elaborate please.



-jrr

Jeff Ray wrote:> Algy is still around after how many weeks? 250+? That's over five years. Obviously, if he was

> against the intentions of the designers, then he would have been squashed by now. Unless you're

> calling the designers incompetent.



Letting players create bots to compete with other players is not part of the designers' intentions. That's why Algerbot is an exception, not the rule.

Show me where the designers' intentions are spelled out, and I'll concede this point. Otherwise I'll just assume you're overapplying Ockham's razor and oversimplifying a complex rule model that may or may not exist.

> Have you considered that given how long Algy has been around for, that the game might be balanced

> partially with him in mind?



It probably is, yes. That doesn't transform it into a good idea.

It also makes it a moot point what effect he might have on the designed game, because the game was designed with him in mind. It's not like he completely breaks the system in ways that were never intended.

I wasn't try to solve the "lazy town healer" problem. This was an (off the cuff) idea for solving the "not enough healers during off hours" problem.

Solving problem A while greatly magnifying problem B is not what I would call an acceptable solution.

> And the PC healer population immediately drops down on their asses and doesn't move until a few of

> them decide to log out. GREAT idea. This would also encourage people to bring out their fighter

> characters to sit around town, which I consider a negative pressure.



I don't see how you reach these cases. Elaborate please.

Let's make the (stretched, admittedly), that a nontrivial factor in getting healers off their asses is that if they don't, someone else will do it and take the credit/coins/share. If they have to worry about this NPC stealing their business, they'll do things. The second the NPC shuts down, they lose part of their motivation to be active. The second case is a much easier line of logic: If a person can bring out either their healer or their fighter, but bringing out their healer would make the NPC one step closer to shutting down, then that would be an overall negative, whereas bringing out their Fighter would be neutral. Most people are smart enough to see that the Fighter is a better choice, all else equal.

Jeff Ray wrote:Price setting is a TBD. Poor folk can troilus, if they can walk back. If they have to be rescued, Algerbot isn't the one doing the rescuing, so they're no worse off than before.

Although Algy may still be the one who raises them.

from an objective point of view Algy's greatest asset is his Horus, especially during off times.



How much Horus would this NPC healer have? zero? some? an infinite amount?



If this healer only heals people who are still alive then were still faced with the problem of having people too fallen to heal when there arnt enough healers around.



If the NPC healer can heal anybody no matter how fallen then thats even more discouraging to training horus than having Algy do it.

With our infinite supply of coins we'd never have to leave people to depart which i suspect would be really against the design of the game.