The Clan Lord Sentinel

Hello all,
Everyone who knows me, knows that I talk about combat techniques it terms of movements or formations.
Many of you know what “Circle Up” means when covering the injured. Many know what “Focus” means. But do you know how to move with graceful and elegancy throughout your water dance?

I say things like “vector” when I could just say “path” or “heading.” I talk about studying the movements of all those around, both the basic and smarter A.Is that control creature patterns, yourself and even other fighters. Very few know other terms, such as “slingshot,” but the techniques, until recently have not been discussed about how to move knowing the patterns. I usually have to show people. I have written a scroll in case anyone wants to look to answer this question: Do you practice dodging and avoidance patterns even when you don’t have to?

In one exercise an exile runs from things and leads them into obstacles as a way of shake or gain distance from them. It’s basic, but I wonder how many people practice it? The application is that once mastered, in groups is that you can use this ability to lead creatures directly to rods & bricks.

Are you always colliding with people… do you know how to practice dodging them? etc. etc.
Anyway the basic Feral AI is the one that seems to give people the hardest time to catch the faster ones.
http://www.clanlord.net/clump/index.php ... 0.9D_AI.29
Is there any interest in discussing this? or any interest in an in the field demonstration class?

Personally I would suggest anticipating rather than dodging. Knowing how your buddies fight is better than relying on fast twitch avoidance. Unless you're really fast on the twitch.

Maeght wrote:Personally I would suggest anticipating rather than dodging. Knowing how your buddies fight is better than relying on fast twitch avoidance. Unless you're really fast on the twitch.

Actually, anticipation of other’s actions is part of it as well, and the next level that can be taught after the fundamentals of movement are learned but while creature movements and practice are being honed. I know people new to hunting with others will not know their hunting companions patterns. It is pretty evident when I hunt with new people, they don’t always immediately recognize what I’m going to do next. In this case I advise observation as well. Also, if you KNOW your new hunting partner has not tagged a beast, and you are in the way of them and the tag: get out of the way. If you have beast aggro, then lead the beast to those that haven't tagged, etc. If I tag and there are fighters behind me that haven’t I try to clear out as fast as possible so they do not have to change vectors.

This is a lot to take in, and at my (and other veteran’s) level of always being vigilant, we do it by habit. Basically, I and others build habits which make us work better in groups. Whenever I teach someone how to fight, I teach them working in concert with others too. The “if you are healthier than someone fleeing, try to intercept it.” “If you are being chased and in danger of falling, run it into a rod or healthy person.” etc.

Anyway, I thought I would start a convo. What are your “moves” that help in teams?

noivad wrote: Anyway, I thought I would start a convo. What are your “moves” that help in teams?

Well, I have opinions about moves I like to do, but other people that I've hunted with will have to say whether they're helpful or not.

I've trained in a non-standard way. I generally don't have specific creature studies on the prime critters. I try to rely on family bonus for tagging and contributing to take downs. I study the hardest stuff (when I can) and annoying, weaker stuff. One thing I try to do is get a trajectory on multiple injured junk targets to invoke walk through. This does several things: it lets me move through faster than most, it lets me get a huge amount of burst damge, and it also lets me clear exit lanes for those that need to get out of combat.

Maeght wrote:

noivad wrote: Anyway, I thought I would start a convo. What are your “moves” that help in teams?

Well, I have opinions about moves I like to do, but other people that I've hunted with will have to say whether they're helpful or not.

I've trained in a non-standard way. I generally don't have specific creature studies on the prime critters. I try to rely on family bonus for tagging and contributing to take downs. I study the hardest stuff (when I can) and annoying, weaker stuff. One thing I try to do is get a trajectory on multiple injured junk targets to invoke walk through. This does several things: it lets me move through faster than most, it lets me get a huge amount of burst damge, and it also lets me clear exit lanes for those that need to get out of combat.

Well, like that example: which I have touched on and illustrated here http://www.clanlord.net/clump/index.php ... ack_Vector you can say what is helpful to you, and let others judge. If you think it works, then please share it, and let’s not worry about people discounting it. If this were a class, this thread would be more like brainstorming (meaning no naysayers and no devil’s advocate:“but it wouldn’t work if this” objections) with open discussion later. If you think it works, please share, because that is a way for others to learn or at least start to think about combat from a more tactical perspective. If thinking about this is not to someone’s liking, they are free to state that as well, except know that some have fun thinking in those terms. There in no “right” answer or opinion here. What I’m after is ideas and fresh perspectives so all can benefit.

EDIT: BTW, I do notice your (and when others’ movement patterns) are thoughtful and anticipate the movements of others. You can’t “dodge” if you haven’t anticipated their movement. And yes there are always last minute twitches (both good and bad) and small movements errors by me and everyone else. I can usually tell when someone have formed certain habits, and I can even tell when someone has lag if their movement deviates from their normal movement. The problem with a guide like the CLUMP is it is trying to take so many variable and form guidelines. However ultimately, every scenario is different and requires internalization of these guidlelines with the person synthesizing how to move on the fly, and constantly adjust. So, it really comes down to Observation, Practice, Internalization & Good Judgement. It’s like a cook book can tell you how to cook, but it doesn’t make you a good cook instantly. (BTW: I’m reading “Practical Thinking and Learning” by Andy Hunt right now, and I am considering how to apply it to learning to be an expert in CL.) Thanks for your feedback.

It's like the old saying, battle plans last until the battle starts. But a good team can adapt, even if some of the team members can't.

I've found that even if I haven't hunted with someone much, if I know or can shoe horn their style into a type, I can adjust to them. For example, there is a fairly standard ranger-tagger style that I slip into if I'm not careful. I know I'm in that mode when faster-twitching players are a half second in front of my trajectory and by the time I retarget for tagging, they retargetted to my new target. Generally that means I switch to junk-killing/defend healers mode.

Adaptation & practicing to be able to adapt are a lot of what this thread is about. AIs are easy to plan for to because their patterns are known. but other players can be more difficult. By practicing movement & tactics with AIs they become second nature & can be adapted to without thought, and only player variables need to be added to thier behavior.

The problem is when people don’t care to acknowledge or even consider that this sort of thing can make or break a hunt’s speed & sucess. By practicing, I think people can play better & become better assets in the field. But once bad movement styles form, they can be even more difficult to break because the “It works for me” attitude prevents learning anymore. Sure, it’s a game, but I think it is odder to play a game & reach basic compotency without trying to get better at it, than it is to continually trying to improve.

I don't think people will ever treat CL like a performance based or competitive game. You can find small performance-minded groups for that but with everything else I've found it's better to keep things as simplistic as possible from a leadership perspective.

Micromanaging individual engagements is almost always a waste of time and reduces the impact of your more important commands

If they want to take it on themselves to get better, they probably already did so. This game is mostly intuitive. I guess it's always nice to have an option if they need it though

Things "seem" intuitive after you've spent hundreds or thousands of hours doing it.

Fish in water I'm thinking.

noivad wrote:But do you know how to move with graceful and elegancy throughout your water dance?

I say things like “vector” when I could just say “path” or “heading.” I talk about studying the movements of all those around, both the basic and smarter A.Is that control creature patterns, yourself and even other fighters. Very few know other terms, such as “slingshot,” but the techniques, until recently have not been discussed about how to move knowing the patterns.

you are such a weird dude, for real

Largo wrote: you are such a weird dude, for real

I haven't seen anyone here that wasn't weird and if I did, that would be weird.

Maeght wrote:

Largo wrote: you are such a weird dude, for real

I haven't seen anyone here that wasn't weird and if I did, that would be weird.

i always felt like taryn was probably pretty normal

Largo wrote: i always felt like taryn was probably pretty normal

Unless she's doing healing experiments, and then it's "Maeght, step into the fire, now Maeght, step out of the fire. No, no, you didn't time it right, now we have to burn you all over again."

Largo wrote:

noivad wrote:But do you know how to move with graceful and elegancy throughout your water dance?

I say things like “vector” when I could just say “path” or “heading.” I talk about studying the movements of all those around, both the basic and smarter A.Is that control creature patterns, yourself and even other fighters. Very few know other terms, such as “slingshot,” but the techniques, until recently have not been discussed about how to move knowing the patterns.

you are such a weird dude, for real

You either aren’t smart enough, experienced enough or perceptive enough to use a more appropriate word. I’d pity you but you are probably unaware of why…

Daimoth wrote:I don't think people will ever treat CL like a performance based or competitive game. You can find small performance-minded groups for that but with everything else I've found it's better to keep things as simplistic as possible from a leadership perspective.

Micromanaging individual engagements is almost always a waste of time and reduces the impact of your more important commands

If they want to take it on themselves to get better, they probably already did so. This game is mostly intuitive. I guess it's always nice to have an option if they need it though

It’s not micromanaging, it’s teaching people how to hunt smarter—Not necessarily competitively, but competently. The game AIs are very predictable, while how badly some people position themselves, and most people’s general lack of even basic tactical wisdom despite thousands of hours of playing is mind-boggling. But if no one cares to be more effective, then no one will get any better than their rank count. So, instead, I’ll be encouraging people to think faster.